94 supercharger no start condition? VATS? WTF
 

Hey Fellows,
I have been watching this site for a few weeks now and have gained alot of knowledge since, thanks. I now have recently purchased a 94 from an auction with no key. I didn't even know if it would run or not. I had someone go and pickup a key for me at the dealer and the car would only crank unless I feed it fuel through the air flow meter then she would run long enough to burn that fuel and die. I have checked alot of things out only to find the dealer gave me the wrong key. They gave me a #12 ( resistance value@6.040 ). The vin determines it needs a #5 ( value@1.130 ). I purchased a new key at the correct value and I still have the problem only now it will not crank with the new key it will only turn the accessories on and the security light stays on also. I have found if I wait awhile she will then crank however only with the wrong, bad key(#12)? I have researched this problem to death. I just decided to splice the vats wire under the column. I did this and I checked the resistance values of the wires coming from the ignition with the different keys in the ignition, turned to the start position and both keys are reading correctly? This is where I get confused. I checked the resistance value of the spliced wires coming from the junction box on the firewall and it says I have a resistance value of 7.39, 7.40. I have tried starting the car by putting the correct key (#5) in the middle of the wires coming from the junction box and using the wrong key to turn the cylinder and nothing. I then tried the same thing with the incorrect key (#12) in the middle of the wires and the good key to turn the cylinder and she will crank? I have noticed the security light stays on until a few minutes have pasted then I can get it to crank but only with the wrong key? WTF?
Does anyone have a clue as to what my problem is. I was planning on tapping the wires and soldering the correct resistor in there however I wouldnt think that would work though since the appropiate key won't get it? I also tied the two wires together that come from the junction box and again no go......Thanks and sorry about all the details but I would think you would need to know the whole story to help... Take Care, Kris :cry:
Helpful VATS info: http://www.asttraining.com/Files/vats1.pdf

edit: anti-theft module maybe? where is this thing and what does it look like? anyway to bypass it?


anybody have a schematic of this security system that they would be willing to post? for a 94ssei..


I have no manuels for this car and really need to get it going the old lady wants it out of her way, if you know what I mean...

update: I have noticed the new key that came from a locksmith not the dealer,(#5) its resistance is 1.120 not the specified 1.130. I have also noticed its still within the acceptable ranges however I read somewhere it wouldnt work right if you dip below you would need to go higher within the range. Is this true? I also noticed the dealer key is dead on its resistance 6.040 (#12) however its the wrong key chip but I do get it to crank off that one, once I wait like 5min...? I don't know just trying to brainstorm...sorry this post goes on forever however it may help someone else down the road?...

The VATS interrupts both the crank and fuel circuits simultaneously. If the car is cranking with the #12 resistance, that is the right one. If the VATS system encounters a wrong resistance, it will time out for 3 minutes and the Security light should stay solid.

It sounds to me that you have a fuel delivery problem outside of the VATS. Since you already have the VATS wires accessible, go to Radio Shack and pick up a resistor(s) that will equal the #12 value and temporarily splice in so the car will crank. Then we can troubleshoot the fuel delivery problem.

You mentioned that the second VATS value was determined by the VIN but how was the first (#12) resistance value determined?

Have someone turn on the ignition and listen for the fuel pump to come on in the fuel tank. Do you hear it? Now look on the inside of the passenger side fender next to your battery. See a little one-wire green plug? Hook an ohmmeter up to that and ground. When you turn the ignition on and off, does it change from infinite to nearly a short? If yes, this indicates a good fuel pump relay. If not, change the relay under the hood in the maxifuse relay center.

Now jumper 12v from the battery + terminal to this green connector with the ignition off. Your fuel pump should deliver pressure.

Reading fuel pressure at the rail, and scanning for codes would also be helpful.

The #12 was determined by the dealer at closing time and the guy I sent over there said they were in a real hurry to get out of there that day. I took the key to my dealer and they said sure enough the key is a number 12. Then they ran the vin and it says I need a #5. The first dealer never saw the car itself only had vin in hand which they banged out the right code they just gave me the wrong chip set?

The number 12 only works after waiting like 5mins and will only crank a few times then the security light illuminates and back to nothing I go?

If it were the fuel pump or fuel pump relay wouldn't it crank every time? dunno?




Wilwren: after I get this thing going I want to know where I can get some of those goodies you have on yours....If I get it going that is?....

If it cranks, and doesn't start, it's likely a fuel delivery problem. Either fuel pump or Regulator. Get it consistently cranking first, then we'll go after it.

Goodies? Those aren't goodies under my hood, those are BAWLS.

I can't get it to consistantly crank, from the moment I sit down in it to turn it over the security light is on. I then just leave the key hung open for a few minutes and then it will crank a couple of times as long as I don't bring the key all the back then I'm back to waiting a few minutes before it will crank again? I have a strong, fully charged battery I can put the lights on at night and crank it and see no reaction what so ever to the headlights that is, not a dimming effect on anything?...

SYSTEM OPERATION
The PASS-Key II system prevents the engine from starting if the proper resistance is not sensed from the ignition key. Only one of the 15 resistance values available works with each PASS-Key II module.

The PASS-Key II module controls the starter enable relay and the PCM fuel enable input. If the PASS-Key II module does not send the proper pulse width modulated (PWM) signal to the PCM fuel enable input, the PCM does not allow fuel to be provided to the engine.

If the wrong resistance value is sensed when the ignition is turned on, the PASS-Key II module does not ground the starter enable circuit and does not output the fuel enable PWM signal for approximately three minutes. This prevents the engine from starting and discourages the thief from trying key codes (resistance values) at random.

If the correct resistance is sensed when the ignition is turned on, the PASS-Key II module grounds the starter enable circuit and outputs the fuel enable PWM signal. This allows the engine to start normally.
.................................................. .....

System Components

PASS-KEY II SYSTEM

SYSTEM COMPONENTS
The ignition key for PASS-Key II equipped vehicles is a typical square ignition key blank and a resistor pellet. The key blank and resistor pellet are not serviceable separately. There are 15 different ignition key assemblies, each with a different resistance valve. The ignition key also has mechanical cuts similar to non-PASS-Key II ignition keys.

IMPORTANT:
When servicing the PASS-Key II system, obtain all ignition keys if possible and verify proper values with tool J 35628-A, VATS interrogator.

STEERING COLUMN LOCK CYLINDER
The steering column lock cylinder in PASS-Key II equipped vehicles contains a set of electrical contacts used to measure the ignition key resistor. The wire routing for the contacts inside the steering column is critical. When servicing the lock cylinder set, be certain to maintain proper wire routing. A forty-eight pin connector at the base of the steering column connects the contacts to the vehicle wiring. The connector is also used for diagnostic purposes.
The steering column lock cylinder also performs all lock cylinder functions similar to non-PASS-Key II vehicles. When replacing column lock cylinder, is necessary to make new keys which match the PASS-Key II key code of the PASS-Key II module and the mechanical cut of the new lock cylinder.

PASS-KEY II MODULE
The PASS-Key II module contains the PASS-Key II system logic. The PASS-Key II module has inputs from the battery and ground circuits, the ignition circuit and the ignition key resistor. The module has outputs to the starter enable circuit, the fuel enable circuit, and the security indicator.

IGNITION INPUT
The ignition input is used to turn the module on. When the module is turned on, it reads the ignition key resistor and controls the outputs accordingly. When the module is turned off the ignition key resistor is not read, and the starter enable relay and fuel enable output do not allow the engine to start. When the ignition is turned off, the battery input to the PASS-Key II module draws about 1 milliamp.

IGNITION KEY RESISTOR INPUT
The ignition key resistor inputs are used to determine if the correct key is being used to start the vehicle. The ignition key resistor inputs are read when the PASS-Key II module is first turned one. If the ignition key resistance value matches the value stored in the PASS-Key II module, the starter enable relay and fuel enable outputs allow the vehicle to start. If the ignition key resistance value does not match the value stored in the PASS-Key II module, the starter enable relay and fuel enable outputs prevent the vehicle from starting. While the vehicle is running, the ignition key resistor inputs are also read. If the PASS-Key II module reads an open, short, or incorrect resistance value for 60 consecutive seconds, the SECURITY' indicator illuminates until the fault is connected for the remainder of the ignition cycle and all subsequent ignition cycles. The PASS-Key II module allows the vehicle to start during this condition.

STARTER ENABLE OUTPUT
The starter enable circuit controls the starter enable relay. When the PASS-Key II module senses the proper ignition key resistance, it grounds the starter enable circuit which allows the engine to be cranked. If the PASS-Key II module does not sense the proper ignition key resistance, it does not ground the starter enable circuit.

FUEL ENABLE OUTPUT
The fuel enable circuit is a PASS-Key II Module output to the PCM. When the PASS-Key II module sees the proper ignition key resistance, it outputs a pulse width modulated (PWM) signal to the PCM. If the PASS-Key II module does not see the proper ignition key resistance, it does not output PWM signal to the PCM.

"SECURITY" INDICATOR OUTPUT
The security indicator circuit is an indicator output. The output is grounded, causing the indicator to light during any one of the following conditions:

* During a five second BULB TEST at key "ON."
* Any time the PASS-Key II module is preventing the engine from starting.
* If the PASS-Key II module is not properly programmed.
* If the PASS-Key II module has detected an open, short or incorrect resistance for 60 consecutive seconds while the vehicle is running.

STARTER ENABLE RELAY
The starter enable relay does not allow the engine to crank if the correct resistance is not sensed at the ignition key. it prevents the engine from cranking by opening the circuit to the starter solenoid.

POWERTRAIN CONTROL MODULE (PCM)
The PCM reads the fuel enable circuit to determine if the fuel injection should be allowed. If the fuel enable PWM signal is not present, the PCM does not allow fuel injection. If the correct PWM signal is present, the PCM allows fuel injection and normal engine operation.
The PCM has some diagnostic features associated with the PASS-Key II fuel input, including diagnostic trouble codes. Refer to Computers and Controls for details. See: Powertrain Management

Again, if it cranks, the VATS is not the problem.

It is strange that you can only crank it for a few seconds before it flakes out again. The waiting 5 minutes indicates that the VATS module has seen an incorrect resistance. At this point, I'm unsure how you have the wiring done/undone and am wondering if you just have some poor electrical connections as you are testing.

The module is behind the dash, a little below the windshield. In the following pic, it can be seen below the airbag wiring harness (yellow connector and warning lables). It wouldn't be fun to change. The good news is that it probably isn't the cause of your problem.
Attachment 77788

randman,
Then that all said how would the #12 crank it then the #5 do nothing? When the dealer is telling me the #5 is what I need? I appreciate the help from both of you guys...This problem is really racking my brain...It may be a two part problem however I want to get past this key issue and get to a consistant cranking....

What would the odds of disconnectiong the battery and hopeing the VATS will simmer down a bit and let him try it?

I was getting the same inconsistant cranking with only the 12 before I pulled it down now I have the vats wires cut and what I do is place the 12 in between it holding the two wires on either side of the pellets. Then I use the number 5 to turn the cylinder to get it to crank which it reacts in the same manner it did before I pulled it apart...


I have had the battery off it for days now charging it up to try this problem out again..


:cry:

I'm confused... From what you've posted, the first key came from a dealer (#12) and the second (#5) was from a locksmith.

I like your idea of soldering in a resistor. At least so we can verify the VATS function. If you know on someone that is in the mobile electronics industry, ask them for an unused "VATS pack" which are included with most remote starters. If the starters are installed in a vehicle without VATS then they are extra. Most installers will keep them, though. If not then it's off to the Shack.

If I'm reading this all correctly (and I've got only about a 60% confidence of _that_), the #12 resistance is the correct one, simply because that's the one that gets your starter motor activated. Never mind what the VIN lookup determines; that tells you only that when the car was built in 1994, it had a #5 VATS module assigned. That was a long time ago.

So put your VATS wiring back together and start using the #12 key. If the engine cranks for a while but then triggers the Security light before the engine actually gets going, I would wonder whether (1) the key resistance is not _quite_ what it's supposed to be, and/or (2) there is an intermittent or dirty connection through the ignition switch key contacts where they touch the key, and eventually the measured resistance goes out of range (or just gets interrupted) before you get the car started.

Once the engine is running, with ignition key in the Run position (e.g. while you're driving), it requires a full 60 seconds of loss of contact with the key resistor before the Security light will come on (as a warning that a fault has been detected), but even then, VATS will not kill the engine; the _only_ thing that will happen while you're driving is that the light will illuminate. But if the measured resistance is momentarily not correct during the _starting_ process, that will lead to an instant kill, as you have seen.

So I think you're on the right track with the right resistance number, but you've still got something flaky, intermittent or slightly out-of-spec-rating that's interfering with your efforts to start the car.

Would possibly replacing the key cylinder help or make a difference at all?? Maybe the key cylinder is just worn out and is getting that flaky intermitant problem?

both keys are brand new..


What is the best way to tie the small wires back up? should I tie them or should I solder them back together?


#12 was bought at the dealer, then I called another dealer and had the vin ran they said I needed #5?

So I bought number 5 at local locksmith. The pellet is within acceptable specs reading 1.120 which the actual number should be 1.130? The number 12 from the dealer was right on the correct number havin a value of 6.040.

I've never had much luck soldering the VATS wires as they are more like thread than they are like wire. I usually use these tiny little butt connectors found at Radio Shack. They say "telephone splice" connectors or something close to that.

Try the solder first but use the butt connectors if you run into problems.

I've soldered them while installing my remote starter. They're pretty fiddly to work with, but with patience you'll get it. More importantly, you'll have a solid connection that won't deteriorate (read: increase resistance) over time.

Twist them together first so the two ends are tightly together, then heat thoroughly, touch a little solder to it, and it'll all melt together. No need to overload it.