S/C inlet cooling on topswap: IC or water injection?
12-07-2007, 11:15 PM
#11
Senior Member
Posts like a Corvette
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,451
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by TJ'sblackbonne
With a top swap on that higher comp motor and the gt1 and a decent tune, i would say almost plan on 13'* with just that.
Originally Posted by TJ'sblackbonne
My next question is going to be what are you doing for exhaust, that is going to be your down fall. I truely dont think PEMS'* are going to be right for you not on that higher comp motor. Just my thought
), and as I see it, high SCR plus low boost is essentially the same net result as low SCR plus high boost. I have read repeatedly the mantra that "stock mani'* are good to 12'*," so I'm not planning any further exhaust upgrades...at this point.
Originally Posted by TJ'sblackbonne
As for water injection, i wouldnt do it.
Originally Posted by TJ'sblackbonne
As for the SSIC..... ummmm..uhhhh. Might be something you would like. As for costs wren, i belive that with the SSIC you dont need to machine the supercharger and lim (almost 99% sure), but yes you have to find an injector solution, but doesnt he have injector spacers already?? not sure there
Originally Posted by TJ'sblackbonne
So my thoughts. Top swap with GT1 cam.... going to need headers, almost a giving......but you maybe able to get away with pems and a 3 inch dp. Also think P&P lim, and blower. Hint Hint, WBS is having a sale on P&P blowers.
12-07-2007, 11:22 PM
#12
Junior Member
Posts like a Ricer Type-R
Ag, you may have missed my comments above while you replied to TJ.
What compression ratio are you planning on? I don't think that'* been answered yet. If it'* a top swap, you will indeed be running low boost to start.
Let me know what you think about my comments below TJ'*.
What compression ratio are you planning on? I don't think that'* been answered yet. If it'* a top swap, you will indeed be running low boost to start.
Let me know what you think about my comments below TJ'*.
12-07-2007, 11:23 PM
#13
Senior Member
Certified GM nut
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Wickliffe, Ohio
Posts: 2,155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Andrew I know you are asking about 2 forms of intercooling to reduce temps but what about simple home P&P of the SC inlet and outlet them selves? That’* very cheap compared to the two options at hand and would yield even greater results when combined with an IC or WI.
Ed
Ed
12-08-2007, 01:37 AM
#16
Senior Member
Posts like a Corvette
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,451
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by willwren
Ag, you may have missed my comments above while you replied to TJ.
What compression ratio are you planning on? I don't think that'* been answered yet. If it'* a top swap, you will indeed be running low boost to start.
Let me know what you think about my comments below TJ'*.
What compression ratio are you planning on? I don't think that'* been answered yet. If it'* a top swap, you will indeed be running low boost to start.
Let me know what you think about my comments below TJ'*.
It is a topswap onto the L36 bottom end I'm contemplating. And I will be initially starting with a 4.2" pulley ("training wheels"
)If you could post links to the P&P (to save me the search), I'd appreciate it, thanks.
12-08-2007, 08:47 AM
#17
Senior Member
Certified GM nut
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: plattsburgh NY
Posts: 2,037
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have you considered the SS kit from ZZP? Might be a little more expensive but...... you dont need the extra pullies, comes with a ported and polished lim and blower. Also you use the L36 heads, so i think switching back and forth would be easier. I dunno, just wondering if you did research on that idea.
12-08-2007, 09:59 AM
#18
Junior Member
Posts like a Ricer Type-R
Ummm.....TJ.......read above. It'* the SS we're talking about. It doesn't come with a bunch of pulleys or ported housings.
That'* what we've been discussing this whole topic.
That'* what we've been discussing this whole topic.
12-08-2007, 12:30 PM
#19
Senior Member
Posts like a Corvette
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,451
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What I'm contemplating could be called a "hybridized" zzp SS M90 / topswap.
It will use L67 heads and injectors / fuel rail, M90, appropriate sensors, vac lines and bracketing, etc. And yes, I do plan on P&Ping.
But it will be driven using a system like the zzp SS M90 kit (i.e., offset MPS pulley, custom idler, and single longer serpentine belt to drive it all). This drive system will be partly "home-engineered," because the zzp kit as-is will not fit a pre-'99 H-body, due to fitment issues between their custom idler pulley and the front engine mount. Also, I think the */C pulley belt wrap on that system could be improved with a relocation of the custom idler .
So basically, I'd be buying the zzp SS M90 offset hub/pulleys, but engineering the rest...with help, of course.
(I decided to go this way on the */C drive because I couldn't get a consensus as to whether the L67 HB could properly balance L36 internals)
That said, in actual fact, I'm contemplating a three-way L36/L67/SS M90 hybrid. I'm investigating what it would take to engineer an adapter that will allow the M90 to mate to the L36 LIM...as you might recall from my scattered threads on this topic, I'm going to have to swap the M90 out on occasion, and I'd like that to be a quick operation
(This is the original reason I picked up the injector spacers)
Will, if you could link that up here, I'd appreciate it.
It will use L67 heads and injectors / fuel rail, M90, appropriate sensors, vac lines and bracketing, etc. And yes, I do plan on P&Ping.
But it will be driven using a system like the zzp SS M90 kit (i.e., offset MPS pulley, custom idler, and single longer serpentine belt to drive it all). This drive system will be partly "home-engineered," because the zzp kit as-is will not fit a pre-'99 H-body, due to fitment issues between their custom idler pulley and the front engine mount. Also, I think the */C pulley belt wrap on that system could be improved with a relocation of the custom idler
.So basically, I'd be buying the zzp SS M90 offset hub/pulleys, but engineering the rest...with help, of course.
(I decided to go this way on the */C drive because I couldn't get a consensus as to whether the L67 HB could properly balance L36 internals)
That said, in actual fact, I'm contemplating a three-way L36/L67/SS M90 hybrid. I'm investigating what it would take to engineer an adapter that will allow the M90 to mate to the L36 LIM...as you might recall from my scattered threads on this topic, I'm going to have to swap the M90 out on occasion, and I'd like that to be a quick operation
(This is the original reason I picked up the injector spacers)
Want to know how to reduce the temps of the intake charge by 'fixing' the supercharger? It'* already posted if you search, but I'd be willing to refresh you here if you like.
12-08-2007, 01:11 PM
#20
Junior Member
Posts like a Ricer Type-R
Originally Posted by willwren
Let'* start with a simplified model. This is an M62 (really no different for the
purposes of the debate than an M90) under normal operating (street) conditions.
We'll ignore the track conditions for now, but we'll come back to it:
What'* the hottest surface? The INLET. Not the outlet. Why? Restriction/friction
of airflow. To be honest, this is a very simple model. It doesn't have the cooling
ports, and some of the conditions may be based on theory, rather than reality. So
we take this data as a starting point, and try to refine the model (this analysis was
done by a group of college engineering students at least 3 or 4 years ago.
Fast forward to the current state of the Zilla:
See the little temperature strips? There are 9 of them on the SC, Nosedrive, TB,
and LIM. Why? I wanted to know not only WHAT temperatures were typical in
different driving conditions, but also HOW it heats up. What'* hot first? Where
does the heat start, and how does the SC react during heatsoak? Does the
coolant actually HELP?
So then I made a model.
That was a long time ago, and for another purpose as well, but a good 3D model is
the starting point for a good thermal analysis job.
So I took everything I learned from the original thermal analysis (top image in this topic),
and everything I learned from REAL data from my own car (coolant temps, stuck-on
thermal temp strips, and IR heat analysis) in multiple conditions. Different ambient air
temps, wet weather, dry weather, street conditions, long trips, and track.
Now let'* apply all THAT to the 3D model WITHOUT coolant flow (temps are typical on
a warmed up engine after about 15 minutes of driving in ambient 60°F air, 200° LIM):
The dark blue is constrained to 150°F (338Kelvin) to represent engine bay ambient
temps, and the bottom surface is constrained to typical LIM temps. As you can see,
the BOTTOM of the inlet is the hottest surface. This is what pre-heats your incoming
air for you. Nice, huh?
Now let'* induce some coolant flow and kick up the incoming air temp a bit to REALLY
see what'* going on (85° ambient air, 180° coolant temp in the SC coolant ports, 250°F
LIM temp):
See the positive result in the inlet despite the increased IAT and LIM temps?
Coolant flow controls it.
Now to be honest, there are other factors at work here, but I think I've captured the
critical data very well in these models. On a track, with sufficient cooling, you'll be OK.
SC temps don't spike at the track until AFTER the run. But if you drive your car daily,
you need the coolant. And you can STILL cool down between runs at the track. You've
lost nothing.
Ideal solution? A seperately cooled interface plate between the SC and LIM, that routes
coolant (not engine coolant) through the plate beneath the SC, and through the SC to the
TB. Something like this:
Further incoming air temp improvements are the direct result of polishing your SC inlet.
As a point of comparison:
My Gen3 M62 inlet and TB run 15° cooler than Matt'* Gen3 M90, despite the fact that
I was moving far more air with a 2.0" pulley than his stock 3.8" pulley. This is a direct
result of polishing the rough inlet surface left over from the casting process.
This was after an extended high-throttle side-by-side run in 106°F ambient conditions.
I hope I've answered the question from this topic, at least with regards to the L67'* out
there. The data is going to come out differently for L27'* and L36'*, as the inlets won't
be as hot to begin with. But it'* something to chew on.
Long and short of it based on what I've learned on my own car and through thermal
analysis:
Normal driving conditions require the coolant to manage SC inlet temperatures
Furthermore, blocking the coolant ports is no advantage at the track if you're cooling
in the staging lanes between runs and icing the SC housing.
purposes of the debate than an M90) under normal operating (street) conditions.
We'll ignore the track conditions for now, but we'll come back to it:
What'* the hottest surface? The INLET. Not the outlet. Why? Restriction/friction
of airflow. To be honest, this is a very simple model. It doesn't have the cooling
ports, and some of the conditions may be based on theory, rather than reality. So
we take this data as a starting point, and try to refine the model (this analysis was
done by a group of college engineering students at least 3 or 4 years ago.
Fast forward to the current state of the Zilla:
See the little temperature strips? There are 9 of them on the SC, Nosedrive, TB,
and LIM. Why? I wanted to know not only WHAT temperatures were typical in
different driving conditions, but also HOW it heats up. What'* hot first? Where
does the heat start, and how does the SC react during heatsoak? Does the
coolant actually HELP?
So then I made a model.
That was a long time ago, and for another purpose as well, but a good 3D model is
the starting point for a good thermal analysis job.
So I took everything I learned from the original thermal analysis (top image in this topic),
and everything I learned from REAL data from my own car (coolant temps, stuck-on
thermal temp strips, and IR heat analysis) in multiple conditions. Different ambient air
temps, wet weather, dry weather, street conditions, long trips, and track.
Now let'* apply all THAT to the 3D model WITHOUT coolant flow (temps are typical on
a warmed up engine after about 15 minutes of driving in ambient 60°F air, 200° LIM):
The dark blue is constrained to 150°F (338Kelvin) to represent engine bay ambient
temps, and the bottom surface is constrained to typical LIM temps. As you can see,
the BOTTOM of the inlet is the hottest surface. This is what pre-heats your incoming
air for you. Nice, huh?
Now let'* induce some coolant flow and kick up the incoming air temp a bit to REALLY
see what'* going on (85° ambient air, 180° coolant temp in the SC coolant ports, 250°F
LIM temp):
See the positive result in the inlet despite the increased IAT and LIM temps?
Coolant flow controls it.
Now to be honest, there are other factors at work here, but I think I've captured the
critical data very well in these models. On a track, with sufficient cooling, you'll be OK.
SC temps don't spike at the track until AFTER the run. But if you drive your car daily,
you need the coolant. And you can STILL cool down between runs at the track. You've
lost nothing.
Ideal solution? A seperately cooled interface plate between the SC and LIM, that routes
coolant (not engine coolant) through the plate beneath the SC, and through the SC to the
TB. Something like this:
Further incoming air temp improvements are the direct result of polishing your SC inlet.
As a point of comparison:
My Gen3 M62 inlet and TB run 15° cooler than Matt'* Gen3 M90, despite the fact that
I was moving far more air with a 2.0" pulley than his stock 3.8" pulley. This is a direct
result of polishing the rough inlet surface left over from the casting process.
This was after an extended high-throttle side-by-side run in 106°F ambient conditions.
I hope I've answered the question from this topic, at least with regards to the L67'* out
there. The data is going to come out differently for L27'* and L36'*, as the inlets won't
be as hot to begin with. But it'* something to chew on.
Long and short of it based on what I've learned on my own car and through thermal
analysis:
Normal driving conditions require the coolant to manage SC inlet temperatures
Furthermore, blocking the coolant ports is no advantage at the track if you're cooling
in the staging lanes between runs and icing the SC housing.
Further links for a follow-along on some M90 and M62 porting:
(SilverBullet'* GenV, Harofreak'* Gen3, my latest (last year'*) Gen3 M62)
http://www.bonnevilleclub.com/forum/...ic.php?t=64834
(Chadow427'* Gen3 M90 and a couple throttle bodies)
http://www.bonnevilleclub.com/forum/...ic.php?t=70473