A little better handling.......
07-12-2007, 10:45 AM
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Bill excellent write up, and great photos!
I'm in a constant struggle to improve the handling of my car(*) and this sounds like a great mod (and easy on the pocket book too)! I'll have to try this soon, thanks for the PNs.
One question (unrelated to the front swaybar center bushings), where did you find the spring rubbers for the rear springs? I've never seen anything like that, is there another topic with more information on them?
I'm in a constant struggle to improve the handling of my car(*) and this sounds like a great mod (and easy on the pocket book too)! I'll have to try this soon, thanks for the PNs.
One question (unrelated to the front swaybar center bushings), where did you find the spring rubbers for the rear springs? I've never seen anything like that, is there another topic with more information on them?
07-12-2007, 10:50 AM
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advance shows them on their website for 9.79. called the closest store (90 miles) , they said it didn't show up on their system and nothing crossed to it. Clerk said it was probably a Checker part. Guess I'll order online.
07-12-2007, 11:15 AM
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If you order 2 (center bar bushings), you'll get 2 PAIR. That'* how I got my free set from Don. 
Order 1, you'll get two bushings.
The rear spring rubbers were purchased from two locations at the same time. I wanted to play with them in different locations. When I found they were different durometers ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durometer ), I realized I'd ordered well. I didn't expect to be running BOTH sets, and I didn't expect it to make much of a difference if the soft were in the top or bottom, and the harder opposite. But it actually did.
The BEST way to determine a car'* handling is by doing what I did with Boosty last year. I drove his car, and he sat shotgun with his eyes closed. Using only your equillibrium, you can FEEL what the car is doing without the distraction of what you SEE giving you a false impression. You need to blind yourself to any visual reference points. Going through a series of turns, or accellerating through and off a turn, will give you a better idea of what your car needs to suit what YOU want it to handle like. It can be tough to determine if the imbalance is front or rear in some cases, so you have to be VERY much in 'tune' with your car. Or compare yours to other Bonnevilles in the same manner.
To give you a better idea of what does what, and what'* called what, either become a die-hard NASCAR fan like me, or read this:
There'* alot more information out there, but the most important point I can make here is that your car'* handling 'in turns' is too generic. To really achieve good handling, you have to understand how your car handles ENTERING the turn, through the middle of the turn, and OFF the turn. It may be good through the center and off, but loose entering. You have to get familiar with your car, and try to start evaluating the handling through these 3 major parts of the turn. Then you have to start understanding the handling geometry, and decide what you want to start changing to make it handle better.
Curt Martin'* recent post about handling is a great starting point:
http://www.bonnevilleclub.com/forum/...ic.php?t=78912
Until you evaluate how your car handles in, through, and off the turn, and fully understand how the different parts of the chassis, suspension, and tires affect it, you should read, study and understand as much as possible. When you have it all figured out, start making changes. It'* not rocket science, but it'* somewhat complicated as you start to learn it.
DISCLAIMER:
What I've done to MY car may not work on YOURS, or may not suit your STYLE. Those that have driven my car are all pleased with the handling. But each car varies slightly, and each person may want something a little different.
Don't emulate my suspension item by item and expect it to work as well for you or your car. Find your own setup that suits you, and find out what your car wants. Simple differences like different struts between two otherwise identical cars may change what you do with the rear spring rubbers. Upgrading the center sway bushings may cause an imbalance that you have to go after somewhere else. Changes breed changes in order to achieve and maintain a 'neutral balance'.
That being said, this is where I got my spring rubbers a couple years ago:
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/p/3536...pring%20rubber (I think I got the 1", I'd have to measure to be sure)
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...10002_39440_-1
Please also keep in mind that our springs are PROGRESSIVE. The spacing between the coils is different from top to bottom. These do NOT raise the car. In fact, with the car sitting neutral, these actually don't quite touch. They are of NO benefit to launching a car that already has the ELC tricked. If you don't tie them in, they WILL come out on the track if your ELC is up all the way.
Order 1, you'll get two bushings.The rear spring rubbers were purchased from two locations at the same time. I wanted to play with them in different locations. When I found they were different durometers ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durometer ), I realized I'd ordered well. I didn't expect to be running BOTH sets, and I didn't expect it to make much of a difference if the soft were in the top or bottom, and the harder opposite. But it actually did.
The BEST way to determine a car'* handling is by doing what I did with Boosty last year. I drove his car, and he sat shotgun with his eyes closed. Using only your equillibrium, you can FEEL what the car is doing without the distraction of what you SEE giving you a false impression. You need to blind yourself to any visual reference points. Going through a series of turns, or accellerating through and off a turn, will give you a better idea of what your car needs to suit what YOU want it to handle like. It can be tough to determine if the imbalance is front or rear in some cases, so you have to be VERY much in 'tune' with your car. Or compare yours to other Bonnevilles in the same manner.
To give you a better idea of what does what, and what'* called what, either become a die-hard NASCAR fan like me, or read this:
Push
When the front tires lose grip before the rears. (Engineers call this understeer.) Severe push feels as if the steering shaft has turned to rubber or, when extreme, snapped clean off. Have you ever hit a patch of hit ice or deep water in the middle of a turn? Did the car keep going straight even though you turned the wheel hard to the left? That'* push in the extreme. Just as Intuits have many words for different types of snow, oval trackers have many versions of push. This is largely because it'* almost impossible to drive—much less race—a loose car at 180 mph. At least for very long.
The higher the speed, the more critical it is to have some push: At Martinsville or Richmond a just-barely-loose car might not be too bad. Not so at Atlanta or Charlotte. When a driver says the car is "a little snug," he usually means "The car doesn't have quite enough front grip to be really fast but I'm afraid any adjustment you birdbrains make will cause it to go wicked loose." On the other hand, "tight" or, especially, "really tight" means "Try something: You can't make it worse." "Aero push" is when turbulence from a leading car reduces front aerodynamic downforce—and, thus, the grip of the front tires. Trust me, that'* real excitin' at 180 mph: You can see exactly where you're going to hit if the downforce doesn't return soon.
Loose
The rear tires lose grip before the fronts and the car tries spin out—and will without precise driver input. (Engineers call this oversteer.) Most civilians who experience this condition call the result "a wreck." A loose racecar looks spectacular—think drifting—and the driver feels like a hero, but loose is almost always slower than a little push. That'* because the driver can't accelerate hard off a corner. Also, "a little loose" often becomes "a lot loose" as the rear tires burn down. Aero loose often happens when cars are running side-by-side and turbulence off the outside car disrupts air flow to the rear wing. Know this: With push you hit the wall with the front of the car, with loose you hit the wall with the back of the car. With push you see the wreck, with loose you feel the wreck.
Free
This is a short-lived condition when the front tires are sliding only a small amount more than the rears. (Engineers call this neutral.) While often very fast, a free car is demanding, fatiguing and difficult to race around other cars. Once I had a car go free at California Speedway at 150 mph between Turns 1 and 2: With a very high voice I told the crew chief that his adjustment didn't work. Back in the day, few drivers attempted to run an entire Cup race with a free car. As competition has grown to today'* white-hot intensity, some are giving it a try.
Balance
How the handling evolves—or, usually, devolves—over numerous laps or even a single corner. Have you ever tried to tip a chair back and keep it poised on its rear legs? After a few beers? It'* only slightly more challenging to keep a racecar perfectly balanced for an entire race. For the first handful of laps, new tires will mask all but the worst chassis set-up flaws. Then the car may become loose before morphing into push. Or it'll start pushy and go loose. With a witchy car, handling switches characteristics during a single corner: It goes from push to loose and back to push. About the worse is corner-entry push combined with corner-exit loose: The driver has to give up speed to get the car to turn into the corner, but the tail slides out when he tries to accelerate.
In another article, I'll describe the terms used to describe mid-race adjustments: wedge, track bar adjusments, tire pressure, and spring rubbers.
When the front tires lose grip before the rears. (Engineers call this understeer.) Severe push feels as if the steering shaft has turned to rubber or, when extreme, snapped clean off. Have you ever hit a patch of hit ice or deep water in the middle of a turn? Did the car keep going straight even though you turned the wheel hard to the left? That'* push in the extreme. Just as Intuits have many words for different types of snow, oval trackers have many versions of push. This is largely because it'* almost impossible to drive—much less race—a loose car at 180 mph. At least for very long.
The higher the speed, the more critical it is to have some push: At Martinsville or Richmond a just-barely-loose car might not be too bad. Not so at Atlanta or Charlotte. When a driver says the car is "a little snug," he usually means "The car doesn't have quite enough front grip to be really fast but I'm afraid any adjustment you birdbrains make will cause it to go wicked loose." On the other hand, "tight" or, especially, "really tight" means "Try something: You can't make it worse." "Aero push" is when turbulence from a leading car reduces front aerodynamic downforce—and, thus, the grip of the front tires. Trust me, that'* real excitin' at 180 mph: You can see exactly where you're going to hit if the downforce doesn't return soon.
Loose
The rear tires lose grip before the fronts and the car tries spin out—and will without precise driver input. (Engineers call this oversteer.) Most civilians who experience this condition call the result "a wreck." A loose racecar looks spectacular—think drifting—and the driver feels like a hero, but loose is almost always slower than a little push. That'* because the driver can't accelerate hard off a corner. Also, "a little loose" often becomes "a lot loose" as the rear tires burn down. Aero loose often happens when cars are running side-by-side and turbulence off the outside car disrupts air flow to the rear wing. Know this: With push you hit the wall with the front of the car, with loose you hit the wall with the back of the car. With push you see the wreck, with loose you feel the wreck.
Free
This is a short-lived condition when the front tires are sliding only a small amount more than the rears. (Engineers call this neutral.) While often very fast, a free car is demanding, fatiguing and difficult to race around other cars. Once I had a car go free at California Speedway at 150 mph between Turns 1 and 2: With a very high voice I told the crew chief that his adjustment didn't work. Back in the day, few drivers attempted to run an entire Cup race with a free car. As competition has grown to today'* white-hot intensity, some are giving it a try.
Balance
How the handling evolves—or, usually, devolves—over numerous laps or even a single corner. Have you ever tried to tip a chair back and keep it poised on its rear legs? After a few beers? It'* only slightly more challenging to keep a racecar perfectly balanced for an entire race. For the first handful of laps, new tires will mask all but the worst chassis set-up flaws. Then the car may become loose before morphing into push. Or it'll start pushy and go loose. With a witchy car, handling switches characteristics during a single corner: It goes from push to loose and back to push. About the worse is corner-entry push combined with corner-exit loose: The driver has to give up speed to get the car to turn into the corner, but the tail slides out when he tries to accelerate.
In another article, I'll describe the terms used to describe mid-race adjustments: wedge, track bar adjusments, tire pressure, and spring rubbers.
Curt Martin'* recent post about handling is a great starting point:
http://www.bonnevilleclub.com/forum/...ic.php?t=78912
Until you evaluate how your car handles in, through, and off the turn, and fully understand how the different parts of the chassis, suspension, and tires affect it, you should read, study and understand as much as possible. When you have it all figured out, start making changes. It'* not rocket science, but it'* somewhat complicated as you start to learn it.
DISCLAIMER:
What I've done to MY car may not work on YOURS, or may not suit your STYLE. Those that have driven my car are all pleased with the handling. But each car varies slightly, and each person may want something a little different.
Don't emulate my suspension item by item and expect it to work as well for you or your car. Find your own setup that suits you, and find out what your car wants. Simple differences like different struts between two otherwise identical cars may change what you do with the rear spring rubbers. Upgrading the center sway bushings may cause an imbalance that you have to go after somewhere else. Changes breed changes in order to achieve and maintain a 'neutral balance'.
That being said, this is where I got my spring rubbers a couple years ago:
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/p/3536...pring%20rubber (I think I got the 1", I'd have to measure to be sure)
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...10002_39440_-1
Please also keep in mind that our springs are PROGRESSIVE. The spacing between the coils is different from top to bottom. These do NOT raise the car. In fact, with the car sitting neutral, these actually don't quite touch. They are of NO benefit to launching a car that already has the ELC tricked. If you don't tie them in, they WILL come out on the track if your ELC is up all the way.
07-12-2007, 12:19 PM
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Great detail as always.
Yeah, I was wondering if they'd improve launch over a tricked ELC...but, in your opinion, would ELC otherwise eliminate the usefulness / effectiveness of these spring rubbers?
What about CCR (for those who have it)?
Originally Posted by willwren
They are of NO benefit to launching a car that already has the ELC tricked. If you don't tie them in, they WILL come out on the track if your ELC is up all the way.
What about CCR (for those who have it)?
07-12-2007, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by agrazela
Great detail as always.
Yeah, I was wondering if they'd improve launch over a tricked ELC...but, in your opinion, would ELC otherwise eliminate the usefulness / effectiveness of these spring rubbers?
What about CCR (for those who have it)?
Originally Posted by willwren
They are of NO benefit to launching a car that already has the ELC tricked. If you don't tie them in, they WILL come out on the track if your ELC is up all the way.
What about CCR (for those who have it)?
These would not be as effective as tricking the ELC at the track. They will allow some spring compression before they start working for you in a straight line with a track launch 'squat'.
CCR is a joke. I have it in my 95. They are no different than any other strut in handling, other than they're selectable between what you would normally see in a generic strut and perhaps a sensatrac or KYB GR2. Again, they allow some spring compressino to take place before they respond. Spring rubbers oppose that initial compression before the shock has time to react.
07-12-2007, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by agrazela
Great detail as always.
Yeah, I was wondering if they'd improve launch over a tricked ELC...but, in your opinion, would ELC otherwise eliminate the usefulness / effectiveness of these spring rubbers?
What about CCR (for those who have it)?
Originally Posted by willwren
They are of NO benefit to launching a car that already has the ELC tricked. If you don't tie them in, they WILL come out on the track if your ELC is up all the way.
What about CCR (for those who have it)?
07-12-2007, 12:53 PM
#18
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Originally Posted by sonoma_zr2
Originally Posted by agrazela
Great detail as always.
Yeah, I was wondering if they'd improve launch over a tricked ELC...but, in your opinion, would ELC otherwise eliminate the usefulness / effectiveness of these spring rubbers?
What about CCR (for those who have it)?
Originally Posted by willwren
They are of NO benefit to launching a car that already has the ELC tricked. If you don't tie them in, they WILL come out on the track if your ELC is up all the way.
What about CCR (for those who have it)?
As a passenger, CCR modes are barely discernable as different. The driver will notice, but again, it'* not dramatic as some people think. I would personally prefer Monroe Sensatrac or Reflex struts all day long over CCR in Performance mode.
07-12-2007, 01:04 PM
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You report much better handling response when you turn and has less front end lift. I'm well aware that it'* FE2-equipped.
Would this kind of change be of any benefit to cars with FE1 (which should be in the negatives like FE-2) aka me and other people.
Would this kind of change be of any benefit to cars with FE1 (which should be in the negatives like FE-2) aka me and other people.