what about the big horseshoe mount on the passenger side of 3100'* (bottom mounting point to subframe)

thats def different

you seem more concerned with bringing this off topic than helping willwren. remember the section description? no idea is too stupid? this is far from stupid, in fact it makes sense and i'm surprised no one else has considered it. just think of all of the extra room you would have for a turbo setup alone due to the engine being narrower since it'* a 60* opposed V6 instead of 90* opposed (60* opposed V6 = naturally balanced just like a 90* opposed SBC V8, another plus). i'm talking about a turbocharged 3400 not just a 3400 so the stock numbers are out the window. then there is the Eaton - it'* funny you mention that because that'* one of the main reasons i don't want to use a 3800. look at all of the heat those things put out and the associated KR problems. as far as power adders go that has got to be the worst possible choice out there besides nitrous. a turbocharger is sooo much more efficient, even a CSC or a Whipple is much much more efficient than an Eaton supercharger. the 60*V6 takes very well to boost. mine was putting down 227whp/325wtq on a shitty tune; probably around 255whp & 360wtq now that it is tuned. all on an engine with a quarter million miles that has never been rebuilt. i'd say that'* pretty reliable. what are the Series I L67 guys dynoing using the M62? 89jyturbo on the v6z24.com forum has put down 328whp & 329 wtq on 3400 running 10psi without an intercooler ( http://khturbo.net/rmtz24/RMTZ24.html ). i think that kind of power would move a heavier Bonneville right along just fiine i wouldn't do a remote mount setup, but the point is a turbocharged 3400 can put down serious power with alot of torque to back it up and do it reliablly. it'* not llike i'm trying to swap in an Iron Duke or a Quad-4 here.

there is a replacement for displacement; it'* called boost. just look at the power some of the 1.8T VW/Audi guys are putting out. the differnece between 3.4L and 3.8L is minimal. i'm not aware of any head issues the 3400 has, can you please elablorate on that? i've heard of bad LIM gaskets, but then the 3800 has it'* share of LIM problems as well.

that'* why i'd like to see a pic of a '92-'95 Series One engine bay without the engine installed. i know of a '93 SSE at the local j/y without the engine or trans iin it, i'll prbobably go get some pics of that and bring along my 3400 horseshoe engine mount bracket & mount and see if it even comes close to fitting the subframe.

i know the 1st GEN '88-'97 W-bodies could come with either the 60*V6 or the 3800, and i've heard that the subframe is the same between W-bodies with the DOHC 'LQ1' 60*V6 and the 'L27' 3800 (but not the same for other (pushrod) 60*V6s). if that is true i might be able to mix and match parts. in the end it will all probably come down to me just trying to drop a 3400 into a Bonneville and seeing what is going to be an issue for myself. so far it'* looking like no one else has done it. the torque axis mount on the passenger side might be a big problem, but the again i know the 3400 uses a mount like this as well (it bolts to the timing cover) on other cars like the '99+ N-bodies. so fabricating something to work with the Bonneville body/strut tower side of the mount should be possible. though it would be really nice to use dogbones as well like the W-bodies. i think the fabrication part would be easy but strengthening the radiator support might not be....if it even needs to be strengthened. i wonder why the H-bodies radiator support is not strong enough to support the engine'* movement? you'd think it would be or it would fail crash tests but i'm sure there is more too it. i'll have to compare them at the junkyard i guess.

thanks to everyone for the help!

Turbo Sedan, you have an idea, I'm asking you WHY?

That'* off-topic? I don't think so.

Turbo, there'* room for a Turbo already under our hoods. If that'* your reason as you state above, your engine choices are less limited than you thought.

i might just do that, although i think i'd resort to turbocharging a Series I L67 and doing a custom setup. there are things about the CarTuning turbo kit (for the Series II of course) that i don't particularly like (wastegate placement/rear exhaust manifold, no water cooled turbo etc) and willwren mentioned to me that the Series I L67 has a forged crankshaft, rods and pistons?!!?? if this is true i would definately turbocharge a Series I L67 over a Series II. i just don't know how i would go about tuning something like that (that is, a turbocharged Series I 3800 running OBD-1 ECM) unless i went with something like Megasquirt standalone (and i don't really want to go there). or has the '92-'93 L67 definition file been throroughly hacked into? tuning a 3400 would be easy thanks to GM/Pontiac & ASC/McLaren making the 'LG5 Turbo 3.1 'AZRC' codeset and Moates products such as TunerPro RT (though i imagine TunerPro RT would work with any OBD-1 GM vehicle). the Turbo 3.1 'LG5' $8f definition file has been hacked into and many more people know alot more about the code now than a few years ago. no one seems to mess around with the Series I L67 for some reason. i guess everyone flocked over to the Series II L67 before the Series I had a chance to get any aftermarket support going for it but maybe i'm wrong. the Turbo 3.1 'LG5' is alot like the Series I L67 in way - it'* the "underdog". it was only available for two short years before the frankenstien-engineered DOHC 'LQ1' 60*V6 replaced it as the "performance" engine. likewise, the Series I was only available for 4 years before the Series II was available, and that engine replaced both the Series I 'L67' and the DOHC 'LQ1' in the W-bodies.

by off topic you seem to be slanted against the 60*V6. you say it'* more troublesome (it'* not; it'* actually very easy to work on), it'* not as reliiable (it is every bit as reliable proven by thousands of cars) and that it has head issues (it simply doesn't). the 3800 is the one with head issues; i mean, they are made out of iron. c'mon now, that is just plain old school technology.

i already stated my reasons for wanting to use a 3400:

- i'm already much more familiar with the 60*V6
- i already have one sitting in my garage (actually 3, and that'* not counting the one in my Cutlass)
- a turbocharged 3400 can definately make the power and torque for my goals
- tuning without using standalone would be easy and cheap
- if needed, a Getrag 5-speed will work more easily with a 3400 than a 3800.
- and yes, there is more room. sure there is enough room with the 3800, but the more room available the easier a custom turbo setup is going to be. heck, you might even have enough room to run twin turbos fed directly off of each exhaust manifold. no crossover pipe required.
- and last but not least, it'* different. i don't think it would be cost prohibitive at the expense of being different. it would be alot of work yes, but i don't think it would cost alot. maybe something really wild like TT would be, or if my goals were like 500whp, but i'm not going that far.

so far the big issue i see is actually mounting the 3400 in the engine bay. i'm still open to using the 3800,,,,i'm just seeing what needs to be done to get a 3400 in there first is all. it might be easier than most think.

As far as tuning goes there are definition files for 92-93 and 94-95 L67. Tunercat has them.

So, no stand alone.

The 3800 has no head issues. And the heads are less prone to warping with 'old school technology'.

The 3800 is by far much easier to work on. I have a LH0 and the rear bank is a nightmare, I have also torn apart 3100/3400s.

The 5 speed is easier to mate to a 3400? You would have to do what, 1 mount on top of all the other mounts you would need to make to get it to work in the H-body. And as far as getting all the other components to work in a H-body, thats no walk in the park.

More room? The H-body engine bay is HUGE. Seriously.

I'm all for new/custom/etc. but get your facts straight.

cool they are available then have there been many people editing and burning their own chips for a turbo application or would i be on my own? with WBO2 and EGT monitoring i think i could eventually do it, but i can imagine the fuel/spark tables would need to be changed big time since the power curves between supercharger and turbocharger are so much different.

i'm not SET on using a turbocharger, though i would really prefer it. i don't really want to go with a Series II L67 (almost seems everyone has one, including myself haha) or the Series II with the CarTuning kit ($$$$).

how about this:

how much whp could i get out of a Series I L67 with the 4T60E? i'm talking about still using the M62, but extensive tuning, alcohol injection, porting etc? could i at least reach 350whp or does the M62 prevent that?

You would need to find the maximum cfm of the m62 and estimate an efficiency to get the max hp it can support.

good, i don't want to lose driveabliity and from what i have seen some don't even have a knock sensor.

i've never had a 60*V6 head warp (or blow a head gasket), but i'm assuming you mean becauase they are made out of aluminum and on an iron block? i don't really think that'* an issue, i mean look at the LSx engines. iron sucks for retaining heat (back to KR problems), they are heavy, and then to think about porting them. ugh.

it all depends on what engine you are more familiar with. i can do all six spark plugs on my turbocharged 'LH0' in under 15 minutes easy, but when it comes to my L67 it'* more like an hour of fighting with it (i've only had my GS for 6 months now). i even replaced the rear manifold on my 'LH0' from the top within a 1/2 hour. i guess it just depends on which engine you're more familiar with. saying one is more easy to work on then the other is not exactly true.

what facts are you talking about? i'm in the process of getting info & weighing the pros and cons not posting facts. the 5-speed would be easier due to the flywheel. you'd have to get a 3800 flywheel from an F-body and have it machined down and i don''t like the sound of that. i know the H-body engine bay is HUGE, but more room is ALWAYS better IMO. it'* not like i'm not consideing the 60*V6 because it would give me more room for a turbo installation, it'* just a small detail really. more room is always better, whether it'* room for engine R&R, making custom turbo manifolds or just changing spark plugs when you are done.