This past week GM'* top leaders have been in Washington begging for their life. They have told the Senate they are losing 1 Billion in cash a month and need a lifeline. They tell a half truth and the 25 Billion would only slow the bleeding long enough for the top echelon to fund their paychecks while they figure out new corporate horizons outside the auto industry. They are in personal binds and their stock options cant be sold because GM stock is now worthless.

Hard facts they rather not talk or think about/What GM has really lost.

(From MSNBC) "GM has lost $57.5 billion in the past 18 months, including $15.5 billion in the second quarter. It'* burning more than $1 billion a month in cash, has more than $32 billion in long-term debt"

Thats quite a bit more than a Billion a month they want to allude too like it can be fixed, and notice they are pushing alot of the loss into debt they can never pay back. So How? is their share of 25 Billion (divied up 3 ways with Ford and Chrysler) going to help them stay in business with them losing 5.1 Billion a month for the fall quarter? And it isnt going to get better. Their lots are full of new 09'*, they are choked with leftover 08'*, and the banks arent lending money but for a few top level credit rated customers. This whole mess makes me sick to think my tax dolars could go towards this no win BS.

The Federal Government needs to turn a deaf ear on this and let them take the only real sour pill thats going to work. Go into bankruptcy to protect them from creditors, reorganize, downsize corporate structure, merge where needed, re-tool, and with the protection of the Federal Bankruptcy Court flip off the AFL-CIO who has handcuffed them with workers that cost $50/hour with pay, benifits, comp, retirement, and health. Toyota and Honda are turning a profit with US plants despite the economic downturn. Because they control costs, see trends and can actually respond to them responsibly and in a timely manner.

This isnt the ranting of a rice loving import driving liberal. I am a life long GM loyal consumer who has seen this coming for two years. I made remarks here in this forum about the inevitable 2 years ago when they posted a 12 Billion loss for '06, and '07'* numbers were looking worse. This isnt a surprise to anyone, and why should we throw money out the door to fuel the flames that wont die. GM, your getting what you deserve.

yeah, then the federal government is stuck paying for all the retirees who lost their pensions when the big 3 go into bankrupcy. if that were to happen, my grandma won't be able to meet the cost of living anymore. now thats not fair, is it?

The Retirements funds and the Trusts that feed those funds should be intact, and the responsibility of the Union the workers have paid into, to have remained intact. The real point here is, 25 Billion (divided by 3) cant help a stubborn Corporation living in a fantasy world gone by, where graft and luxury prevail, layered to the the point of inability of being effective , squandering 5.1 Billion a month in face of the current economic situation. GM wont go belly up as they are posturing and whining in Washington about. The company is far to big and diversified for that. They have to accept the fact their automotive segment has to go Chapter 11, cut deeply into their corporate staff, and get real about what they can pay workers and still keep the lights on. Our government is heading down the path of Socialism with a quickness. Do you suggest we bailout every poorly ran company that runs to Washington and whimpers? Whats next, Bailout Parker Brothers because not enough parents bought little Johny a Monopoly set this Christmas? Speaking of Grandparents, I am One. And rely on interest from my IRA'* to live on. With the market crashes over the last 10 months they have lost 40% of their value. And it'* not over. Nobody in the Government is feeling sorry for me. I have had to adjust. And so GM and their legacy must as well.

I agree that giving them money isn't going to help. Only painful change and restructuring will.

Wow, pension. Must be nice. I'm not part of a union, I get no more than market value for my services, and have to put away my own money in a 401k for retirement. I think that is a reality that the auto workers are going to have to face sooner or later. People are living longer now, and pensions are becoming a huge liability for GM, along with the inflated wages and other benefits the workers now receive.

It'* amazing to look around on the roads and see how many GM vehicles built in the last 10 years are out there, yet they are going broke.

This is a shame. Cadillac finally built a true world-class high performance sedan with the 2009 CTS-V. To finally have the auto mags proclaim it as good or better than the M5 in overall performance and refinement is a great accomplishment. Now potential buyers will wonder if the warrantee is going to be in force if they drop a big chunk of money on it. That is another concern - now that the problems are out in the open, sales are likely to fall even further.

yeah, a pension. back when my grandpa was alive, they were all under the impression that the pension would carry them through. nobody ever expected this to happen to GM, or any of the big 3. My grandma'* 80. She already lives on a wage thats considered "povery" level. She can't afford assisted living so she stays in her house, which she would take a 75K loss if she was to sell it. She doesn't buy alot but much of her money goes towards doctor visits to manage her health problems. If GM were to go under, she'd lose even more because since my grandpa died, she only receives a portion of his pension. its not fair to penalize those retirees who worked hard their entire lives and now don't have the means to survive without what they were promised.

i plan to be a small business owner and to invest my money in personal savings programs to ensure my retirement. even my parents are doing that because my dad knows that his days at GM are numbered. My parents are part of the newer generation that had warning that this crisis was coming. I don't feel bad for people who are still of working age and don't have money saved for the future because the signs that they won't be receiving a retirement is all around. Its only the retired folk that I feel for because for the 30+ years that they worked, they were promised a pension that would last them until the end of their lives. with bankrupcy, it gives companies a way to dump that added cost and yes, it may be good for the company but bad for others. After all, we ARE the people and thecomapnies are supposed to serve us, not themselves.

I see your point Edge and feel for people like your Grama. And hope they are fit into a restructure in what ever form that takes. I just dont see how giving the Big 3 operating capital can do anything but prolong the inevitable. And at a further cost and burden to taxpayers. You notice they dont want to accept the 25 Billion already approved and paid for in a previous Senate Bill because it makes them act responsibly, end executive giveaways, and come up with credible idea'* and retooling. They think they can go to Washington and scare people into handing them cash condition free.

i completely understand what you are saying.....it was funny. it was either yesterday or the day before that congress asked the bi3 executives why they chose to use comapny jets to fly to washington dc instead of taking first class on a regular airline flight to save money. the executivesd looked so confused as if they were thinking "whats first class?". I agree that they need to hit rock bottom to work their way back up but i also see the destruction that would follow in that path. i believe with careful monitoring and a written agreement thats enforced is what is needed to keep the big 3 on track. basicly, they need to agree to meet certain milestones for restructuring and progress while they are on borrowed money. i think the days of seeing Bob Lutz in his helicopter over the GM Tech Center are done. at least i hope they are.

To be clear, I definitely feel that if a pension was agreed upon, it'* only right that it be paid. And if it was properly funded, the money should be there regardless of what happens to the corporation. If being the key word.

I was listening to the radio while on the net today and didnt catch the name, but it was mentioned one of the GM execs lives in the State of Washington and commutes an average of 3 times a week on one of GM'* private jets. And them they wonder where it all went wrong. Not one of them have any sense of reality, or know what it'* like to have to eat hot dogs for dinner one night a week (or more) because ya cant' afford to buy real meat for every night of the week.

Edge, has your Grama ever considered a reverse mortgage? If she did one, she could rent the house out (often to family member), plus get decent reverse payments. And if you watch the paperwork, whatever they sell the house for when she passes on in excess of the value they give the house at the time of the mortgage still goes to the heir/heirs. These type of mortgages arent for everyone, but it makes sense for some. And would give her the money for a quality assisted living facility.